Torture part 2

This is a response to Craig's comment on my 'To Torture...' post.

The Omar case is a good example of micromanagement-through-policy. Heinlein's book 'Starship Troopers' has a similar example where a sergeant violated a direct order (to stay above ground) in order to achieve a strategic objective (capture of a enemy leader). The soldier had to be sufficiently disciplined to obey orders but also to be intelligent enough to know that there are valid reasons to disobey.

As for the usefulness of extreme interrogation methods, we have an inordinate amount of evidence that torture does not work. Another of Heinlein's books, "Friday" has a torture scene where the author very clearly examined the aspects of torture and very systematically repudiated any purported benefits. The poor soul you are torturing will tell you whatever you want to know just to get you to stop. Will you sometimes get the truth, surely. Will you save lives, probably. Will you be able to count the lives thus saved, unlikely. Will you still have the credibility for moral leadership, no. There is a caveat to this last point. It is possible to forgive a Prince who uses force, see Machiavelli's "The Prince" Chapter VIII [http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince08.htm] where he says this:

Hence it is to be remarked that, in seizing a state, the usurper ought to examine closely into all those injuries which it is necessary for him to inflict, and to do them all at one stroke so as not to have to repeat them daily; and thus by not unsettling men he will be able to reassure them, and win them to himself by benefits. He who does otherwise, either from timidity or evil advice, is always compelled to keep the knife in his hand; neither can he rely on his subjects, nor can they attach themselves to him, owing to their continued and repeated wrongs. For injuries ought to be done all at one time, so that, being tasted less, they offend less; benefits ought to be given little by little, so that the flavour of them may last longer.

While Machiavelli was referring to State building, I believe the same holds for the use of violent means during a conflict. The moral outrage was less about that torture was used and more about the idea that it could continue long after the crisis. Speaking for myself, I can forgive the Bush administration for its use of harsh methods in exigent circumstances. I can not forgive the unwillingness to disavow the use of torture in the future. We can not live in war-time forever just because it excuses bad behavior by those in power. Being unwilling to acknowledge that waterboarding is torture had few logical explanations in my mind; a) so as not to admit that we might have tortured in the past, b) to protect those who inflicted torture from prosecution by the law, c) because they considered acceptable behavior by a state. The first point implies knowledge of guilt, the second points to a conspiracy of the guilty, and the third is evidence of a twisted character.

Inflicting pain onto, or dismissing the pain of, others has always been the distinction of the sociopath; little boys who enjoyed pulling the wings off flies or torturing neighborhood cats and grew up to be serial-killers or rapists. Their lack of empathy makes them a danger to society.

Let's get back to basics. Is torture ever 'Right'? Is it ever 'Just', 'Fair', or 'Moral'?
I submit to you that torture violates the principles upon which this great nation was founded. Making an exception for your 'Jack Bauer' scenario only shows that it is sometimes considered necessary, convenient, and / or expedient, none of which I would want held up as examples of our society's defining characteristics.